The "N" word

[sgtbilko]

Glancing as I do from time to time at my older stuff I decided to go thru
some Uncanny X-Men. I picked out issues 196 to 204 for no particular reason.
Cover price 65 cents or in real money 30p. 1985.....The 80's eh !?! The
decade that fashion forgot-bad hair and shoulder pads. John Romita jnr
wasn't very good back then either. Well anyway back to the
point..........Issue 196 Rachel hasn't been with them long, this issue is a
Secret Wars tie-in.......I'm on page 14 (yes they used to number the pages
at one time) and we find our selves in a computer physics lab (bizarre I
know) Kitty Pryde is eating a slice of pizza and she gets into an "argument"
of sorts with a black guy called Phil.......cut to panel 5..........."You a
MUTIE then, Pryde like him?" says Phil......."Gee, I dunno, Phil... says
Kitty.....are you a nigger?". Well apart from there being way too many
commas this is unusual right? I don't remember before or since, the "N" word
being used. Kinda shocked me. Yes I understand the context in which it was
used, Kitty is as much offended by the word Mutie as the black guy would be
of the word nigger and she asked him with that in mind. Has it been used
much in mainstream comics? Mainstream being Marvel and DC in this instance

[w***@iki.poxonyourspam.fi]

Post by sgtbilko
know) Kitty Pryde is eating a slice of pizza and she gets into an "argument"
of sorts with a black guy called Phil.......cut to panel 5..........."You a
MUTIE then, Pryde like him?" says Phil......."Gee, I dunno, Phil... says
Kitty.....are you a nigger?". Well apart from there being way too many
commas this is unusual right? I don't remember before or since, the "N" word
being used. Kinda shocked me. Yes I understand the context in which it was
used, Kitty is as much offended by the word Mutie as the black guy would be
of the word nigger and she asked him with that in mind. Has it been used
much in mainstream comics? Mainstream being Marvel and DC in this instance

Well, "much" is a relative concept, but it certainly wasn't a
first. I think the word was used in the classic Denny O'Neil/Neal Adams
Green Lantern/Green Arrow run, at least, and that was a good fifteen years
earlier.
It was also used during John Byrne's Fantastic Four run when the
Psycho-Man caused racial tensions to really heat up in New York City -- as
I recall, a priest who tried to talk sense to the mob got branded a
"nigger-lover" and assaulted. I think that was in the early 80s.
These aren't the only examples, just the first two that came to
mind.

- Mikki

[w***@iki.poxonyourspam.fi]

Post by w***@iki.poxonyourspam.fi
Well, "much" is a relative concept, but it certainly wasn't a
first. I think the word was used in the classic Denny O'Neil/Neal Adams
Green Lantern/Green Arrow run, at least, and that was a good fifteen years
earlier.

I wasn't sure if I remembered this right or what, so I looked it
up. Green Lantern/Green Arrow #85, the first issue of the pretty famous
"Speedy is a junkie" storyline, has a bunch of teenagers who use heroin
talking amongst themselves about why they do it. An Asian guy talks about
how his dad gets called a chink or a slant every day, and a black kid
responds:
"Oooo... you comin' on strong! So you get insulted, hey? 'Chink's'
nothing compared to the names I'm called... nigger is for openers! Then
they get real poetic! But it ain't the names they call you, it's what's
behind theyr eyes, baby. This is my reason for shootin'. It makes life
more bearable and it gets me through the day!"
Yeah, I know; it reads pretty corny now -- O'Neil has certainly
improved as a writer since then, as has the language comics generally
employ. But the underlying sentiment still works.
It's also an interesting look at how a lot of people thought about
drugs back then (the book came out in 1971). Green Arrow actually slaps
Speedy around when he finds out he's an addict and clearly holds some
views that are downright fascist -- that only fundamentally weak people
use drugs, for example, and the strong implication is that on some level,
they deserve what they get. I kinda doubt that would fit in with the more
modern interpretations of the character. (It's worth noting, though, that
O'Neil doesn't present the Arrow's stance as a very considered,
compassionate or even smart one.)

- Mikki

[Fallen]

Post by w***@iki.poxonyourspam.fi
It's also an interesting look at how a lot of people thought about
drugs back then

Not just back then thank you very much. That addicts are fundamentally
weak people is hardly an outdated argument.

Post by w***@iki.poxonyourspam.fi
(the book came out in 1971). Green Arrow actually slaps
Speedy around when he finds out he's an addict and clearly holds some
views that are downright fascist -- that only fundamentally weak people
use drugs, for example, and the strong implication is that on some level,
they deserve what they get. I kinda doubt that would fit in with the more
modern interpretations of the character. (It's worth noting, though, that
O'Neil doesn't present the Arrow's stance as a very considered,
compassionate or even smart one.)
- Mikki

Fallen.

[w***@iki.poxonyourspam.fi]

Post by Fallen

Post by w***@iki.poxonyourspam.fi
It's also an interesting look at how a lot of people thought about
drugs back then

Not just back then thank you very much. That addicts are fundamentally
weak people is hardly an outdated argument.

Yes, of course. But my point was that it was a sign of the times
that even a hardcore lefty like the Arrow was very much in that camp at
that time, whereas today your average liberal-minded and socially aware
person isn't very likely to hold such a view -- certainly not as strongly
as the Arrow does in this story. (Y'know, what with him hitting Speedy and
throwing him into the street despite his withdrawal, and generally having
just about zero compassion for a guy who's like a son to him.)

- Mikki

[Tim Turnip]

Post by w***@iki.poxonyourspam.fi

Post by Fallen

Post by w***@iki.poxonyourspam.fi
It's also an interesting look at how a lot of people thought about
drugs back then

Not just back then thank you very much. That addicts are fundamentally
weak people is hardly an outdated argument.

Yes, of course. But my point was that it was a sign of the times
that even a hardcore lefty like the Arrow was very much in that camp at
that time, whereas today your average liberal-minded and socially aware
person isn't very likely to hold such a view -- certainly not as strongly
as the Arrow does in this story. (Y'know, what with him hitting Speedy and
throwing him into the street despite his withdrawal, and generally having
just about zero compassion for a guy who's like a son to him.)

You're hitting on part of the point to that story. Ollie was unable
to deal with Speedy's addiction because up till that point, and
through much of the story, Ollie still thought of drug addiction as
something that always happened to other people, as something that
preyed on the weak criminal scum that he had dealt with his entire
career. It's not until he fully engages with Speedy's problem that he
can reconcile the behavior of his loving ward with this scumbag
criminal element he's accustomed to. So it wasn't so much a sign of
the times as it was a sign of Ollie's misplaced sense of justice. In
the end, Speedy proved Ollie wrong by being willing to throw off the
shackles of drug addiction; it showed that while addicts may be
fundamentally weak people, it takes an newfound inner strength to beat
addiction, as many have found in real life.

[w***@iki.poxonyourspam.fi]

So it wasn't so much a sign of the times as it was a sign of Ollie's
misplaced sense of justice.

Well, I can only reiterate my point that today, a liberal-minded
and socially aware character who encounters drug abuse in his family for
the first time probably wouldn't act in this manner -- beating them up and
throwing them out of the house. I think it _is_ a sign of the times.
You're correct that it's _also_ a sign of Ollie's misplaced sense of
justice. It can be both.

the end, Speedy proved Ollie wrong by being willing to throw off the
shackles of drug addiction; it showed that while addicts may be
fundamentally weak people, it takes an newfound inner strength to beat
addiction, as many have found in real life.

Yeah, I'm certainly not saying that the _story_ was portraying
drug addicts as fundamentally weak people, just that that's how Ollie saw
them at that point.

- Mikki

[billbickel]

Post by sgtbilko
Glancing as I do from time to time at my older stuff I decided to go thru
some Uncanny X-Men. I picked out issues 196 to 204 for no particular reason.
Cover price 65 cents or in real money 30p. 1985.....The 80's eh !?! The
decade that fashion forgot-bad hair and shoulder pads. John Romita jnr
wasn't very good back then either. Well anyway back to the
point..........Issue 196 Rachel hasn't been with them long, this issue is a
Secret Wars tie-in.......I'm on page 14 (yes they used to number the pages
at one time) and we find our selves in a computer physics lab (bizarre I
know) Kitty Pryde is eating a slice of pizza and she gets into an "argument"
of sorts with a black guy called Phil.......cut to panel 5..........."You a
MUTIE then, Pryde like him?" says Phil......."Gee, I dunno, Phil... says
Kitty.....are you a nigger?". Well apart from there being way too many
commas this is unusual right? I don't remember before or since, the "N" word
being used. Kinda shocked me. Yes I understand the context in which it was
used, Kitty is as much offended by the word Mutie as the black guy would be
of the word nigger and she asked him with that in mind. Has it been used
much in mainstream comics? Mainstream being Marvel and DC in this instance

Of course what makes this problematic (in the real world) is that in
the real world, there's no such epithet as "Mutie" and therefore the
writers are using a racially-charged word in response to a fictional
insult.

[MarkRRose]

Post by billbickel

Post by sgtbilko
Glancing as I do from time to time at my older stuff I decided to go thru
some Uncanny X-Men. I picked out issues 196 to 204 for no particular reason.
Cover price 65 cents or in real money 30p. 1985.....The 80's eh !?! The
decade that fashion forgot-bad hair and shoulder pads. John Romita jnr
wasn't very good back then either. Well anyway back to the
point..........Issue 196 Rachel hasn't been with them long, this issue is a
Secret Wars tie-in.......I'm on page 14 (yes they used to number the pages
at one time) and we find our selves in a computer physics lab (bizarre I
know) Kitty Pryde is eating a slice of pizza and she gets into an "argument"
of sorts with a black guy called Phil.......cut to panel 5..........."You a
MUTIE then, Pryde like him?" says Phil......."Gee, I dunno, Phil... says
Kitty.....are you a nigger?". Well apart from there being way too many
commas this is unusual right? I don't remember before or since, the "N" word
being used. Kinda shocked me. Yes I understand the context in which it was
used, Kitty is as much offended by the word Mutie as the black guy would be
of the word nigger and she asked him with that in mind. Has it been used
much in mainstream comics? Mainstream being Marvel and DC in this instance

Of course what makes this problematic (in the real world) is that in
the real world, there's no such epithet as "Mutie" and therefore the
writers are using a racially-charged word in response to a fictional
insult.

But in their world, it IS real, just like the N word, and thus it fit in
the context of the story.

Mark

[David Johnston]

Post by billbickel

Post by sgtbilko
being used. Kinda shocked me. Yes I understand the context in which it was
used, Kitty is as much offended by the word Mutie as the black guy would be
of the word nigger and she asked him with that in mind. Has it been used
much in mainstream comics? Mainstream being Marvel and DC in this instance

Of course what makes this problematic (in the real world) is that in
the real world, there's no such epithet as "Mutie" and therefore the
writers are using a racially-charged word in response to a fictional
insult.

It was a great exchange of dialogue.

[Jason Todd]

Post by billbickel

Post by sgtbilko
Glancing as I do from time to time at my older stuff I decided to go thru
some Uncanny X-Men. I picked out issues 196 to 204 for no particular reason.
Cover price 65 cents or in real money 30p. 1985.....The 80's eh !?! The
decade that fashion forgot-bad hair and shoulder pads. John Romita jnr
wasn't very good back then either. Well anyway back to the
point..........Issue 196 Rachel hasn't been with them long, this issue is a
Secret Wars tie-in.......I'm on page 14 (yes they used to number the pages
at one time) and we find our selves in a computer physics lab (bizarre I
know) Kitty Pryde is eating a slice of pizza and she gets into an "argument"
of sorts with a black guy called Phil.......cut to panel 5..........."You a
MUTIE then, Pryde like him?" says Phil......."Gee, I dunno, Phil... says
Kitty.....are you a nigger?". Well apart from there being way too many
commas this is unusual right? I don't remember before or since, the "N" word
being used. Kinda shocked me. Yes I understand the context in which it was
used, Kitty is as much offended by the word Mutie as the black guy would be
of the word nigger and she asked him with that in mind. Has it been used
much in mainstream comics? Mainstream being Marvel and DC in this instance

Of course what makes this problematic (in the real world) is that in
the real world, there's no such epithet as "Mutie" and therefore the
writers are using a racially-charged word in response to a fictional
insult.

Yeah...I have to admit I'm a little shocked...1) that something like
that made it through Standards and Practices (Jim Shooter, basically)
and 2) that I've never heard of this a'fore now.

I'm pretty familiar with all the controversies in the comics over the
years big (the drug storyline in Spider Man 97-98) and small (Betty
Brant, naked as the Harpy, reverts back to human with a mysteriously
convenient burlap bag covering her) but this one's new to me.

[s***@googlemail.com]

Never mind the n-word.............. I'd forgotten that comics used to
cost 30p!!
You can't buy a Mars bar now for 30p.


Steve

Post by sgtbilko
Glancing as I do from time to time at my older stuff I decided to go thru
some Uncanny X-Men. I picked out issues 196 to 204 for no particular reason.
Cover price 65 cents or in real money 30p. 1985.....The 80's eh !?! The
decade that fashion forgot-bad hair and shoulder pads. John Romita jnr
wasn't very good back then either. Well anyway back to the
point..........Issue 196 Rachel hasn't been with them long, this issue is a
Secret Wars tie-in.......I'm on page 14 (yes they used to number the pages
at one time) and we find our selves in a computer physics lab (bizarre I
know) Kitty Pryde is eating a slice of pizza and she gets into an "argument"
of sorts with a black guy called Phil.......cut to panel 5..........."You a
MUTIE then, Pryde like him?" says Phil......."Gee, I dunno, Phil... says
Kitty.....are you a nigger?". Well apart from there being way too many
commas this is unusual right? I don't remember before or since, the "N" word
being used. Kinda shocked me. Yes I understand the context in which it was
used, Kitty is as much offended by the word Mutie as the black guy would be
of the word nigger and she asked him with that in mind. Has it been used
much in mainstream comics? Mainstream being Marvel and DC in this instance

[Jim Barker]

Post by s***@googlemail.com
Never mind the n-word.............. I'd forgotten that comics used to
cost 30p!!
You can't buy a Mars bar now for 30p.

Some of us remember when they were 9d.....

Jim Barker
Barker Design and Illustration

[MarkRRose]

Post by Jim Barker

Post by s***@googlemail.com
Never mind the n-word.............. I'd forgotten that comics used to
cost 30p!!
You can't buy a Mars bar now for 30p.

Some of us remember when they were 9d.....
Jim Barker
Barker Design and Illustration

Hate to make you guys feel bad, but my earliest memory is comics at 50
cents.

Mark

[iarwain]

I'm offended by the word Mutie.

I'm pretty sure when I started collecting comics they were 15 cents
(1970). They may even have been a dime. I remember at some point in
the 70s they went up to a quarter. The comics companies were very
apologetic about this price hike, and tried to give more value by
adding extra pages and maybe a backup feature or two.

[EB]

Post by iarwain
I'm offended by the word Mutie.
I'm pretty sure when I started collecting comics they were 15 cents
(1970). They may even have been a dime. I remember at some point in
the 70s they went up to a quarter. The comics companies were very
apologetic about this price hike, and tried to give more value by
adding extra pages and maybe a backup feature or two.

I got you guys beat. I remember buy them at 12 cents.
I can remember the days of getting two comics with a quarter.
They were 10 cents for awhile, but during the 60's they were mostly 12
cents.
They hit 15 in the 70's then jumped to 25, but they added more pages
so you thought you were getting more value.

EB

[prestorjon]

Post by sgtbilko
Glancing as I do from time to time at my older stuff I decided to go thru
some Uncanny X-Men. I picked out issues 196 to 204 for no particular reason.
Cover price 65 cents or in real money 30p. 1985.....The 80's eh !?! The
decade that fashion forgot-bad hair and shoulder pads. John Romita jnr
wasn't very good back then either. Well anyway back to the
point..........Issue 196 Rachel hasn't been with them long, this issue is a
Secret Wars tie-in.......I'm on page 14 (yes they used to number the pages
at one time) and we find our selves in a computer physics lab (bizarre I
know) Kitty Pryde is eating a slice of pizza and she gets into an "argument"
of sorts with a black guy called Phil.......cut to panel 5..........."You a
MUTIE then, Pryde like him?" says Phil......."Gee, I dunno, Phil... says
Kitty.....are you a nigger?". Well apart from there being way too many
commas this is unusual right? I don't remember before or since, the "N" word
being used. Kinda shocked me. Yes I understand the context in which it was
used, Kitty is as much offended by the word Mutie as the black guy would be
of the word nigger and she asked him with that in mind. Has it been used
much in mainstream comics? Mainstream being Marvel and DC in this instance

Yeah it is unusual. I remember reading it at the time, or soon after,
and being shocked. I felt, and still feel that it was actually pretty
inappropriate, to use a real slur to highlight how bad your made up
slur is seems in bad taste.

[w***@iki.poxonyourspam.fi]

Post by prestorjon
Yeah it is unusual. I remember reading it at the time, or soon after,
and being shocked. I felt, and still feel that it was actually pretty
inappropriate, to use a real slur to highlight how bad your made up
slur is seems in bad taste.

Why? The slur isn't a slur by itself. I'm not going to go on a
"words are harmless" rant here, but surely there's a world of difference
between saying, oh, "you shouldn't call someone a nigger" and "I hate you,
nigger" -- the first is a perfectly reasonable statement that shouldn't be
offensive to anyone (and if it is, then the person taking offense is
blatantly ignoring the actual message and, like an idiot, picking the word
out of context), whereas the latter is an intentional insult. In
communication, intentions and context count for everything.
So, if you're doing a story about intolerance, using the word in
an appropriate context is perfectly acceptable. I know that some people
really feel that using references like this trivializes real-world
intolerance, but I really don't think it does. Or can someone honestly say
that, in this particular example, Kitty's words somehow convey the idea
that racism directed against black people is trivial or a non-problem
simply because she points out that Phil is talking like a racist himself?
Doesn't she, in fact, do the exact opposite, since she readily
acknowledges that as a black guy, Phil has to deal with racism?
And would it suddenly somehow be more acceptable if Phil had asked
her if she's a kike instead of a mutie?

- Mikki

[prestorjon]

Post by w***@iki.poxonyourspam.fi

Post by prestorjon
Yeah it is unusual. I remember reading it at the time, or soon after,
and being shocked. I felt, and still feel that it was actually pretty
inappropriate, to use a real slur to highlight how bad your made up
slur is seems in bad taste.

Why? The slur isn't a slur by itself. I'm not going to go on a
"words are harmless" rant here, but surely there's a world of difference
between saying, oh, "you shouldn't call someone a nigger" and "I hate you,
nigger" --

The word doesn't have inherent harmfulness. But in American context
it is a very harmful word. I also usually disapprove of the
infantilizing aspect of refering to it as "the n-word" in academic
discussion but in this case this wasn't what happened. Kitty Pryde
said it in order to be hurtful so that she could demonstrate how
hurtful the use of the word "Mutie" was. IMO if you need to jazz up
fake slur with the use of a real slur then you're not doing your
job.

Or can someone honestly say

Post by w***@iki.poxonyourspam.fi
that, in this particular example, Kitty's words somehow convey the idea
that racism directed against black people is trivial or a non-problem
simply because she points out that Phil is talking like a racist himself?

It doesn't matter what the ultimate point of the story is. This
wasn't an academic discussion or a self referential use. It wasn't
like the junkie who someone else refered to in a Green Arrow story who
uses it as an example of what he's had to deal with. It's Kitty
Pryde, using it with the intent to harm. Now the ultimate goal is to
point out to Phil how racist HE'S being and how he wouldn't put up
with that treatment against him. But it comes off as incredibly bad
taste.

[w***@iki.poxonyourspam.fi]

Post by prestorjon
The word doesn't have inherent harmfulness. But in American context
it is a very harmful word. I also usually disapprove of the
infantilizing aspect of refering to it as "the n-word" in academic
discussion but in this case this wasn't what happened. Kitty Pryde
said it in order to be hurtful so that she could demonstrate how
hurtful the use of the word "Mutie" was. IMO if you need to jazz up
fake slur with the use of a real slur then you're not doing your
job.

But the point is, it's not a fake slur to Kitty. Frankly, I'd
consider it to be very bad writing if it's okay to say "mutie" but not
"nigger", if "mutie" is intended to be a racial slur in the fiction. Or do
you think that a racial slur directed at a made-up people should never be
equated with a real-life racial slur? (It's probably obvious that I
disagree, but I can easily understand the position.)

Post by prestorjon

Post by w***@iki.poxonyourspam.fi
Or can someone honestly say
that, in this particular example, Kitty's words somehow convey the idea
that racism directed against black people is trivial or a non-problem
simply because she points out that Phil is talking like a racist himself?

It doesn't matter what the ultimate point of the story is. This
wasn't an academic discussion or a self referential use. It wasn't
like the junkie who someone else refered to in a Green Arrow story who
uses it as an example of what he's had to deal with. It's Kitty
Pryde, using it with the intent to harm.

(Oh, that was me, with the GA reference. Anyway...)
I don't think Kitty was using it with intent to harm. She wasn't
calling him a nigger, she was just asking if he's okay with being called a
nigger. Or, to put it in less loaded terms, she was asking if he was okay
with people using racial slurs in reference to him after he'd already used
one in reference to her. And I think it was a perfectly reasonable
question.
Again: would it have been more acceptable if he'd asked if she was
a kike instead of a mutie? Kitty's Jewish, after all.

Post by prestorjon
Now the ultimate goal is to point out to Phil how racist HE'S being and
how he wouldn't put up with that treatment against him. But it comes
off as incredibly bad taste.

Would it have been more acceptable if Kitty had used an imaginary
racial slur?

- Mikki

[Rob Hansen]

Post by w***@iki.poxonyourspam.fi
Would it have been more acceptable if Kitty had used an imaginary
racial slur?

As QUANTUM & WOODY readers will recall, the term to use is "noogie".
--
Rob Hansen
www.fiawol.demon.co.uk

[iarwain]

to use a real slur to highlight how bad your made up slur is seems in bad taste.

***********

The annoying thing about the X-Men is how they sometimes feel they
have to hit you over the head with the metaphor in order for you to
get it.

I do admit the Green Arrow reaction to Speedy's drug addiction has me
thinking. Of course with a name like Speedy, what did he expect? ;)
I think maybe Arrow's reaction was so over the top because he didn't
expect it to hit so close to home. But there was no question he
thought of drug dealers as the scum of the earth (but that doesn't
necessarily equate to a similar attitude toward users). Green Arrow
liked to think of himself as enlightened but that exchange probably
showed that he wasn't as enlightened as he thought. We've all got a
long way to go, brother.